CloseCall333 wrote:
Cincinnatus87 Let me add Post 50 as great posting also.
Well thanks! Always nice to hear a compliment. Now that I know someone's paying attention I'll have to try and step up my game.
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Cincinnatus87 |
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CloseCall333 wrote: Well thanks! Always nice to hear a compliment. Now that I know someone's paying attention I'll have to try and step up my game.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live
under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but
those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S.
Lewis
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Cincinnatus87 |
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Grace06 wrote: Well then let me explain. I wasn't referring to you writing to your representatives. I'm sure you do and good for you. We should all be as dilligent a citizen as you are. I was referring to this strange notion you seemed to be advancing that the Republicans, having lost the election last year, should now support Obama's legislation. That is a very unusual position and one I didn't believe I ever heard you advance when the votes went the other way. No I did not write anything like that as I oppose the War. Always did always will. And Republicans in general, oppose tax increases and vast expansions of federal control over the economy -- and Obamacare is loaded with both. There's really no difference in their opposition to Obamacare and your opposition to the Iraq War. You each have your beliefs and those don't change to match whoever happened to win the last round of elections. We can't all agree on everything, but being so against what this Administration is trying I sincerely believe the GOP, could be more supportive. And I'm sure you could have been more supportive of the Bush agenda. But here's the thing: It really isn't up to the opposition to support your agenda. If they did, they wouldn't be your opposition then, would they? Watching some college football this afternoon, I felt that the UCLA Bruins could have been a lot more supportive of the University of Washington's efforts to win the football game, but alas, it was not to be.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live
under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but
those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S.
Lewis
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Cincinnatus87 |
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Luck of the Draw wrote: Yes they were, figuratively and literally: Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-N.Y.) locked Republicans out of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee room to keep them from meeting when Democrats aren't present.More LotD... Dems turning politics into a blood sport? Really? I think the repubs accomplished that their attempt to take down a president for a blow job. Stolen election and for real blood sport.....lying our way into a war. Clinton's impeachment happened in 1998. I date the coarsening of our discourse from the Bork nomination of 1987. I don't dispute that Republicans are now willing participants, I was pointing out who bore responsibility for starting it. As for the rest of your litany... George Bush was ahead in every single vote count in Florida in 2000. At no point in that whole sorry exercise, initiated by sore loser Al Gore, was Bush ever behind. Bush did not steal the election, as every count had him winning. Al Gore failed to steal it. But thanks for reminding me of another dubious innovation we can lay at the feet of the modern Democratic party and its unseemly lust for power -- deciding close elections in the courtroom rather than the ballot box. As for the Iraq war. I grow tired of trying to explain how a lie requires foreknowledge that the information given is false. If you haven't gotten it by now, you're too impossibly thick to ever understand. However, I remind you that the current Vice President and Secretary of State were just as big a "liar" as Bush was. If the repubs had a plan where/what the hell is it? Why not addressed during Bush' admininstration? Well the Republicans have offered a plan. Since it is only 200 some-odd pages and a mere $61 billion you probably didn't see it next to the 2,000 page and $2,000,000,000,000 monstrosity the Democrats are pushing. Seizing control of the health care industry and running it out of Washington DC is not a Republican priority. Nor is it a priority of the American people. In the 2008 election, health care ranked as the number one issue for a paltry 9% of the voters. The overwhelming majority of Americans are perfectly satisfied with their health care and health care insurance. But socializing medicine is the Holy Grail for Democrats. They have tried it every time they hold the White House and majorities in Congress. They try it because they want the power, the money, and the control that socialized medicine will give them: trillions of dollars in new taxes, thousands upon thousands of unionized workers, and the opportunity to regulate every aspect of the lives of everyday Americans. Memory jog....to even critique Bush you weren't true blue enuff, unpatriotic and suggested find another country to live........... Memory jog for you. I seem to recall it was lefties who were always talking about leaving for other countries. Furthermore the claim that Republicans "questioned the patriotism" of those who disagreed with them is one that has gained the patina of truth through repetition. Actual evidence of it is pretty thin on the ground. But even if that were not the case, once you have two of the top Democrats in the Congress call those who disagree with them "un-American" from the pages of the largest newpaper in the country, you lose the right to whine about attacks on your own patriotism.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live
under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but
those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C. S.
Lewis
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Cassakay |
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Cincin, if you're looking for more compliments...
It's great to read you again! Your opinions are always well-written and often make me think harder, and I love that. I still disagree with you often, but I'm very glad that you're on here. Cincin, if you're arguing that the discourse of the current-majority party is unacceptable (rhetoric like "un-American"), it follows that you equally condemn the Republicans who do it, correct? I've said on here that I didn't think the Democrats in Congress under Bush did well, regardless of whether they were in the majority or the minority. They were pretty thoroughly cowed in the minority at some points, when they should've been standing up and arguing, and their choice of opposition tactics veered between the ineffective and the petty. The Republicans are good at keeping their party members in step with one another, although whether that strength will continue in the next couple of years remains to be seen. It looks like we might have a series of internal skirmishes brewing in a manner that's more common for the Democrats. All in all, many representatives on both sides have held their short-term political ambitions over the welfare of the country and that's very disappointing. I think most of us on here will agree that the level of political debate in this country falls to juvenile pretty often. I was listening to clips from the house debate earlier tonight and some of the comments were sadly irrelevant and occasionally bizarre. I agree that Democrats and Republicans look at health care differently, but I don't think most of the Democrats want to "seize control." They're as cognizant as anyone that if the government took over healthcare and it didn't improve markedly almost right away, it would be a devastating blow to their party. It's great rhetoric for the Republicans to ramble about, but it doesn't seem persuasive to the moderates. It is important that the Bush Administration never attempted to address the enormous problems with the current heath care system. If they didn't want a public option - which is not the same as a takeover, by any measure - why didn't they anticipate that they should come up with a better solution while they had the votes? With the way it's cycled through before, any moron could see it would be a big issue at some point in the next decade. The health care overhaul Clinton planned could've worked if they hadn't mangled it so very badly, but for a while there it was clear the public was receptive to the idea. "Guess what? I have flaws! What are they? Oh, I don't know... I sing in the shower? Sometimes I spend too much time volunteering. Occasionally I'll hit somebody with my car. So sue me. No, don't sue me. That is... that is opposite the point I'm trying to make." --Michael Scott at "The Office" |
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Luck of the Draw |
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Locks/lock out.....and what precipitated such a move? The repubs stall/obstruction tatics. Attempt to run the clock out? Your own link.....Even before Thomas gaveled the reading to an end, he had directed staff to call the Capitol Police to remove the Democrats form the library. or the manner in which repubs stacked or tacked on amendments which they clearly had no intention of being heard, voted on etc. but rather drag out the legislative process as long as possible? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz5AmhI9g7o As for the rest of your litany... George Bush was ahead in every single vote count in Florida in 2000. At no point in that whole sorry exercise, initiated by sore loser Al Gore, was Bush ever behind. Bush did not steal the election, as every count had him winning. I would beg to differ as would quite few..... "Under any standard that tabulated all disputed votes statewide, however, Gore erased Bush's advantage and emerged with a tiny lead that ranged from 42 to 171 votes. Of 9 scenarios evaluteated Gore won all 6 of the scenarios in which all of the votes were counted. On November 12, the New York Times published a table on page A17 which clearly demonstrated the votes that put Gore ahead. Gore never had a chance to win the recount battle in court, because Republicans controlled the U.S. Supreme Court - as well as the Florida state legislature and the ultimate arbiter of a dispute over electors, the U.S. Congress. That and his brother was governor, the disinfrachised voters, the questionable voting machines, faulty ballot design, fellon purging system. Just a tad too flukey "coincidental" wouldn't you say? As for the Iraq war. I grow tired of trying to explain how a lie requires foreknowledge that the information given is false. Yes, I could see how you would grow very weary attempting to defend such a position. Especially in light of that which we know now. If you haven't gotten it by now, you're too impossibly thick to ever understand. Hardly, I understand perfectly, as do others. Not one lie but a litany of lies almost bordering on "pathological",ey? That which they can't out distance, lay to rest....No WMDs, no yellow cake, no "WE DON'T TORTURE", POWs did have rights/recourse Mission Accomplished, The Surge is working, etc etc etc. Seizing control of the health care industry and running it out of Washington DC is not a Republican priority. Yes, well aware of that...especially given their lack luster performance. Their contribution 20th century was nada/zilch. If anything their mantra/intent was to dismantle the safe guard FDR put in place? Deregulation just about anything they could get their hands on? In the 2008 election, health care ranked as the number one issue for a paltry 9% of the voters. The overwhelming majority of Americans are perfectly satisfied with their health care and health care insurance. Yeah, I guess that was before the economy went head long into the crapper partially due to Bush's lie of war and deregulations, ey? Ripple effect, on going unemployment seen? But socializing medicine is the Holy Grail for Democrats. No. Given the above mentioned, hard times faced by the those suffering, I think it the AMERICAN people that have finally said enuff is enuff. They have tried it every time they hold the White House and majorities in Congress. They try it because they want the power, the money, and the control that socialized medicine will give them: trillions of dollars in new taxes, thousands upon thousands of unionized workers, and the opportunity to regulate every aspect of the lives of everyday Americans. And the repubs, as has been shown, have fought them every turn/bend the entire way. Protecting their power source/base, no?
Memory jog for you. I seem to recall it was lefties who were always talking about leaving for other countries. Furthermore the claim that Republicans "questioned the
patriotism" of those who disagreed with them is one that has gained the patina of truth through repetition
Quite the selective memory you have there. "With the benefit of minute hindsight," he told the Times, "Saddam Hussein wasn't the kind of extra-territorial menace that was assumed by the administration one year ago. If I knew then what I know now about what kind of situation we would be in, I would have opposed the war."....William F. Buckley That makes Mr. Buckley as much of an "unpatriotic conservative," by Mr. Frum's standards, as Pat Buchanan, Joe Sobran, Chronicles magazine, Robert Novak, me or any of the other unusual suspects he lumped into the unpatriotic category. The only difference is that we didn't have to wait until more than 800 Americans and an untold number of Iraqis were dead, billions of dollars wasted, and half the planet despising us to know what would happen. http://vdare.com/francis/unpatriotic_conservative.htm Sean Hannity is often praised for being a "great American" by his fans, who undoubtedly consider the talk show host patriotic. While patriotism can be defined in many ways, supporting the brave men and women who serve in the U.S. military is undoubtedly one of them. As he constantly reminds his listeners, Hannity believes it is impossible to support the troops without supporting their mission in Iraq. To question the president, his motives, or the wisdom of our current policy is unpatriotic, says Hannity. At least that's what he says today. http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=590446 If the convention speeches are any guide, Republicans have run out of excuses for blowing the economy, blowing the surplus, and blowing our military resources and moral capital in the wrong country. So they're going after the patriotism of their opponents. Here's what the convention keynoter, Miller, said tonight about Democrats and those who criticize the way President Bush has launched and conducted the Iraq war:
Every one of these charges is demonstrably false. When Bush addressed Congress after 9/11, Democrats embraced and applauded him. In the Afghan war, they gave him everything he asked for. Most Democratic senators, including John Kerry and John Edwards, voted to give him the authority to use force in Iraq. During and after the war, they praised Iraq's liberation. Kerry has never said that any other country should decide when the United States is entitled to defend itself. http://www.slate.com/id/2106109/ And your last link reinforces that which we knew all along..... However, it is now evident that an ugly campaign is underway not merely to misrepresent the health insurance reform legislation, but to disrupt public meetings and prevent members of Congress and constituents from conducting a civil dialogue. These tactics have included hanging in effigy one Democratic member of Congress in Maryland and protesters holding a sign displaying a tombstone with the name of another congressman in Texas, where protesters also shouted "Just say no!" drowning out those who wanted to hold a substantive discussion. The lengths/methods repubs will go to prevent the crossroads we face ever being seriously addressed. Business as usual. Party ideology before people. Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away... |
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Tronport |
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"Hannity believes it is impossible to support the troops without supporting their mission in Iraq. To question the president, his motives, or the wisdom
of our current policy is unpatriotic, says Hannity. At least that's what he says today."
Patriotism is better served by maintaining a healthy dose of skepticism than by blindly following any political leader. Questioning, over and over again, what decisions our government makes, and debating all aspects contained therein, is the best and healthiest way to demonstrate patriotism, imo. Our government, and both major parties, have proven themselves time after time over the span of decades (if not centuries) to be undeserving of any kind of blind faith. To say anything else is foolish and ignorant of the facts. This is as true of the Obama admin. as it was with the Bush admin. |
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Grace06 |
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LotD May I compliment you on post above. I believe #65. Very well written and told. And Republicans in general, oppose tax increases and vast expansions of federal control over the economy -- and Obamacare is loaded with both. There's really no difference in their opposition to Obamacare and your opposition to the Iraq War. You each have your beliefs and those don't change to match whoever happened to win the last round of elections. Cinci87_________________________________ I do appreciate your compliment to me about my taking actions and writing letters (as I feel all Americans should do) However far too few do. In your above quote, I see a big big difference in the War and The OBamacare Issue' I truly don't like to give Names to any politicians in that way. (I do remember writing 'Bushie' a couple of times, and then felt ashamed of myself) I believe I have always used Bush Administration or President Bush most other times and hope I don't put myself again on the level of Political name calling. (or making up silly names, as I do find them 'childish') However I see a big big difference in the War Issue and Health Care issue.
In my 'Heart' I can never compare the two are in ANY way comparable. mo
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CloseCall333.oklahomaatheists |
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For a short time the other day I did feel better but now my hand is back to feeling numb again however I do have a doctors appointment sometime in the next two or three or 5 weeks. So I am dealing with socialized medicine very well hope you all have the same luck. Well you would think that the greatest thing in the world just happened but by three votes we will now start down the path towards a health care system if we are unlucky. Even the Fox news today made the word victory the center point of their newscasts. For three votes it was almost as if the Japanese emperor walked across the deck of the Missouri & signed the surrender papers. And here I thought we were not going to use the word victory anymore. Otherwise I have gotten really behind on keeping up with everyone's postings.
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CloseCall333.oklahomaatheists |
The blue dress | ||
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This is friction "the blue dress" would liked to have been a fly on the wall. " mom put this dress up for me till later. But honey there is a spot on here I'll get it clean for you. No mom did not do that. But your excuse is hard for me to swallow. Lets just say I didn't. |
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CloseCall333.oklahomaatheists |
Cincinnatus97 | ||
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Cincinnatus97 Great you are on a roll. LOL…. |
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CloseCall333.oklahomaatheists |
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Things that just won't go away but they should not. 2000 Florida election returns Bush did win, WMD Iraq did use gas on Iran and their own population just may have used up all they had on hand, birth certificate and what is wrong with showing your birth certificate, global warming is a scam. The last ice age ended almost 12,000 years ago and the sea level has raised almost 500 feet since then and there was no cars back than. And a number of other significant things. Acorn, SEIU, and many others. Is it really legal to give an organization public funds and have that organization distribute those funds back to the politicians. Plus use those funds to help buy votes for that politician. Just in these past few days we have seen this administration buy the votes in the House for this health care bill. Some of the people who cut deals this time around were organizations like the AARP AMA and others. It is so sad that you have bought into this snake oil salesmen. As it stands now there is 10.2% unemployment and multi-trillions of dollars in debt just in this last 10 months |
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CloseCall333.oklahomaatheists |
Some humor now also | ||
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Commercial for Obama care drug plan. Person may speak with Spanish accent. Now that you are about to have Obama care let me introduce you to a new line. The Colombian cartel's answer to your drug needs. Our drugs have been pre a proved by the FDC and the AMA. And since you just received in the mail your expiration date we can now offer you a two-for-one deal with every purchase of either marijuana or cocaine. Plus just remember that Obama care recommends the Colombian cartel as your advisers on your end of life counseling needs. Operators are standing by to answer your call. We are now accepting personal expiration dates through 2011. If you voted for Obama remember we can offer you a two-year extension when you refuse to show your birth certificate. Thank you for voting for Obama. Mmm mmm mmm…. This message brought to you by Colombian cartel thank you for using our product for your recreation and end-of-life needs. Add the video of Obama saying. Maybe we should just give grainy some pills. And if you act now Castro will add 72 non smoked Cuban cigars to this offer. And as a bonus if you are a Democrat and die in Michigan we will count your vote for the next 100 years. |
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Cassakay |
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2000 Florida election returns Bush did win, -close call See LotD's excellent response. Things happened the way things happened, but that recount should've
gone through no matter who was ahead in the original one. That's just too close.
WMD Iraq did use gas on Iran and their own population just may have used up all they had on hand, -closecall I don't recall anti-genocidal actions being the primary reason to go to Iraq... Anybody else remember
being scared within an inch of our lives? That was argument Number One. But oh... wait... it didn't pan out, so we'll just pretend we had a different
argument all along. Very 1984.
birth certificate and what is wrong with showing your birth certificate -closecall Oh, for God's sake. Why do people seem confused about this? Hawai'i is part of the United States. It was part of the United States when Obama was born. He has shown his birth certificate, at one point even posting it on his website. The evidence he provides is the same as the evidence I have that I'm an American citizen, and no one's ever given me a hard time about it, even people that don't like me. The birther thing is a bizarre conspiracy theory that's beyond credibility, and it taints any other argument you could make against Obama because it's so very, very ridiculous. global warming is a scam. ...See the above. Let's say, for a hypothetical, that global warming isn't as dangerous as we think it is. All right - but do you honestly believe that we can be altering our environment to the exent we are without severe negative effects? That defies common sense. For every action, there is... you know the rest. Acorn, -closecall
Just in these past few days we have seen this administration buy the votes in the House for this health care bill. Some of the people who cut deals this time around were organizations like the AARP AMA and others. It is so sad that you have bought into this snake oil salesmen. As it stands now there is 10.2% unemployment and multi-trillions of dollars in debt just in this last 10 months -closecallAnd of course, the administration that oversaw massive deregulation, the coming of and the onset of a huge recession, and sat around doing nothing about it for months, not to mention indebting the country by trillions of dollars themselves... that history has just disappeared now, right? It's not like Obama has damager to undo or anything. Obama should bear responsibility for his mistakes when he makes them, but he's only one man, and you can't pin all of the country's problems on him without being dishonest or in denial. Patriotism is better served by maintaining a healthy dose of skepticism than by blindly following any political leader. Questioning, over and over again, what decisions our government makes, and debating all aspects contained therein, is the best and healthiest way to demonstrate patriotism, imo. -TronWas it Jefferson who said the dissent was the highest form of patriotism? You're right, we should keep that in mind no matter what party is in power. As for the Iraq war. I grow tired of trying to explain how a lie requires foreknowledge that the information given is false. -CincinHmm. Dick Armey's story seems pretty indicative of Cheney's mindset - and the intelligence community has made it pretty clear that what Armey was told was known to be inaccurate. Frontline had a great feature on that a few years ago. And considering how rabidly right-wing Armey is, he really doesn't get anything out of being ticked off with Cheney. So by your standard either Cheney was disconnected from reality or outright lying. Neither of these things comfort me. If you haven't gotten it by now, you're too impossibly thick to ever understand. However, I remind you that the current Vice President and Secretary of State were just as big a "liar" as Bush was.See, that first line - that's what we're talking about when we discuss the lowering of the level of courtesy in political discourse. And Biden and Clinton were neither President nor Vice-President at the time, as much as both would've loved either. To what level they were depending on the administration's word is arguable, but the fact that they were on some level is not. And don't make me start talking about how with great power comes great responsibility - the VP and the President are indisputably more powerful and more responsible for what happens when they exercise that power. Grace - I know people with very non-family friendly names for politicians, on both sides of the aisle. Don't feel too bad.
"Guess what? I have flaws! What are they? Oh, I don't know... I sing in the shower? Sometimes I spend too much time volunteering. Occasionally I'll hit somebody with my car. So sue me. No, don't sue me. That is... that is opposite the point I'm trying to make." --Michael Scott at "The Office" |
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Tronport |
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Self-imposed intentional ignorance of the facts, and then stating publicly such ignorance as the undeniable truth, can be considered at the very least a
deception, if not an outright lie.
Bush and his admin. are at the very least guilty of the former, if not the later. That Bush continued to assert that the war in Iraq was justifiable throughout his tenure as POTUS (changing several times the reasons for such war) is evidence enough that he knew the truth beforehand and either chose to ignore it or lied about it. The "no-fly" zones that were in effect before the war virtually eliminated any possibility that Iraq could wage war against anyone else. There was NEVER a need to invade Iraq imo. Iraq was NEVER a threat to the USA. Bush had to know this, as did his admin. As such Bush's reasons for invading must have been something else. Political power (greater dominance in world politics, military, economy, nation building, etc.) corporate greed (Blackwater and the rest of the Military Industrial Complex), US economic boost (ironic, but war usually is good for the US economy), revenge (Saddam supposedly ordered the attempted assassination of former POTUS Bush senior) and maybe just to try to be the war hero he never was while serving in the National Guard (fame sometimes comes to those that wage war). Terrorism and WMD's were the original unfounded excuses, but hardly rates as a good reason to conquer and occupy a country that had already been de-fanged and made almost helpless by US controlled airspace. By that rationale we should be invading dozens of countries, some far worse than Iraq has ever been. And maybe that is exactly what some war hawks would like to see happen; the US start a 3rd world war and conquer the whole planet. Maybe in Bush's twisted little mind that was what he was hoping for, Emperor of the World. Whatever the real reasons (we may never know the truth) it certainly was NOT to protect the US from an Iraqi invasion or from any terrorist threat posed by Saddam & Co. Bush may have been, and may still be, an ignorant fool, but I find arguments that he had no knowledge at all of the truth to be so unrealistic as to be laughable, if the war weren't such a serious matter as having cost the lives of many thousands of relatively innocent people. Bush's historic legacy will forever be that of a POTUS that started/waged an extremely costly, deadly, and entirely unnecessary war in Iraq, if not in Afghanistan as well. Time will tell. Edited to add: Ignorance of the law/truth is not considered adequate reason for defense in any US court of law, and yet I have seen ignorance of the facts/truth repeatedly used on the internet to defend the (quite possibly criminal) actions of former POTUS G.W. Bush. Call that a stretch of logic if you like, but it is a valid one imo, and not without some merit. Ignorance is simply not a good enough excuse, especially so in a POTUS.
Last Edited By: Tronport
11/09/09 04:23 PM.
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CloseCall333.oklahomaatheists |
Hi every one.... | ||
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Well the health care plan that I have currently is free with only a $8 co pay however as of the end of this month I go on Medicare and I have started a supplementary plan so from now on I will pay over ten percent of my income for the rest of my life so I guess that is ok.
One of the most frustrating things I have found in life is that if I find a group that has common political grounds we have uncommon religious grounds. And then when I find a group with common religious grounds I find uncommon political grounds. It is so frustrating. But keep in mind I am not angry nor mad just frustrated. |
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Luck of the Draw |
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Frustrated/frustration----aren't we all? Rodney King prophetic (?) "can't we all just get along?" Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away... |
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sear |
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"Rodney King prophetic (?) "can't we all just get along?"" LotD Could Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. have said it any better? |
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Wolf 2uk |
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Could Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. have said it any better? Sear That man Sear was a Knight, of true wonder. His 'I have a Dream' will I am sure go down as a great as any of Kipling-Mark Twain etc. |
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CloseCall333.oklahomaatheists |
Everyone | ||
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Luck of the Draw We have some very common ground. I do not know if I should be sad or glad? Sear quoted Rodney King: "can't we all just get along?" That is a great statement I remember when King first said it. Now I am waiting for it to start.
Wolf 2UK said" "the world is insane." Errol Grey" Yes all but us here.
LOL |
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Wolf 2uk |
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Wolf 2UK said" CloseCall Confused, what did I say?
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