What's more important? Obeying the law, or doing what's right?
Why?
Examples?
Why?
Examples?
What's more important? Obeying the law, or doing what's right?
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What's more important? Obeying the law, or doing what's right? |
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Posts: 60031 (10/08/09 11:06 AM) Admin. w/out Grace06 |
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Luck of the Draw |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 3596 (10/08/09 11:23 AM) Beat the odds! |
For me doing the right thing. Because in the end I have to deal/live with my conscience. Laws/justice.....can be misconstrued/manipulated due to technicalities. Or pressure brought to bear by those higher authority/influence.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away... |
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sear |
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Posts: 60033 (10/08/09 02:40 PM) Admin. w/out Grace06 |
Well LotD, what if you're a juror?
After the trial, the judge charges the jury. S/He instructs them on the law, and their responsibilities. What if the judge instructs you do do something that is legally right, but otherwise wrong? What then? |
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Wolf 2uk |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 2753 (10/08/09 02:46 PM) John: urban |
Voting for someone who believes in doing the right thing and makes Laws to enforce the right thing.
However IMHO doing what's right gets the edge. |
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Luck of the Draw |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 3597 (10/08/09 03:26 PM) Beat the odds! |
Then I'd have to voice my concern pertaining the issue and dissent if need be.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away... |
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Republic15 |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 613 (10/08/09 04:26 PM) |
Are there any real life examples that this pertains to?
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 Errol Grey |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 3475 (10/08/09 09:52 PM) Minister |
History is replete with those who have followed their conscience against the prevailing laws. And some with outstanding results.What's the right thing to
do? LOTD is wrong about one thing. The law is seldom vague. Unlike morality, it is written and clear. You break a law, you know it. What is often vague is not
the law, but application and/or enforcement. Theft is theft. Murder is murder and running a red light is running a red light. All of them are crimes. And all
all of them have been justified in the minds of the perpetrator at one time or another by someone committing them on moral grounds.Any law can be deemed
immoral by someone somewhere. The real test of a persons sense of right or wrong isn't if they will disobey a law they feel to be wrong, but if, like Dr
King, they are willing to do the time for breaking the law.Otherwise, you're just being anti-social.
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Arkanrium |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 293 (10/08/09 11:26 PM) The voice of reason.
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"You do what you must and then you pay the price." -Egwene Al'vere, the wheel of time (Jordan)
But then seeing it like this is also being anti-social, society sees punishment of crime as a deterrent and a teaching tool, not a price tag.
"An open mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred and unguarded."
"Blessed is the mind to narrow to doubt!" "Logic is the mask of traitors, reason the cloak of heretics!" "Compromise is the first step on the road to treachery!" -Imperial librarian |
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Errol Grey |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 3479 (10/09/09 12:09 AM) Minister |
Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. Depends on the law and the outcome of the act. Eventually, refusing to sit in the back of the bus will win more minds than blowing
up a couple of hundred people.
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Luck of the Draw |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 3598 (10/09/09 01:10 AM) Beat the odds! |
I didn't say the law was vague.....I said it could manipulated/misconstrued. And if so clear why the need for explanation? Because no one was ever falsely accused, railroaded, or scapegoated, ey? The time I've known you various forums....tell me you wouldn't speak your mind/heart/conscience/whatever you thought a wrong being done. I the same.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away... |
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Luck of the Draw |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 3599 (10/09/09 01:21 AM) Beat the odds! |
Are there any real life examples that this pertains to?
I'm thinking Gitmo would qualify. Could you/would you torture a POW? Medical malpractice....would you lie to cover up/avoid a lawsuit? Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away... |
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Wolf 2uk |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 2754 (10/09/09 04:00 AM) John: urban |
I'm thinking Gitmo would qualify. Could you/would you torture a POW? Luck of the Draw That I would find difficult to quantify. If say a captured Terrorist had information that could save innocent lives, would you stop at just 'talking'. The sad part is we no long live in a world where Laws are respected or followed by some, 'Taking the lives of innocents to further an aim'. as an example. |
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Luck of the Draw |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 3600 (10/09/09 08:14 AM) Beat the odds! |
The sad part is we no long live in a world where Laws are respected or followed by some, On this we can agree and that which transpired Gitmo bears out. Info/photos leaked shocked the global community why? Why did some condone/partake in the torture going on and other's didn't? Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away... |
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Wolf 2uk |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 2756 (10/09/09 12:11 PM) John: urban |
Why did some condone/partake in the torture going on and other's didn't? Luck of the Draw Some view the emergence of Islamic Terrorist as a world problem, which is going to get much worse, so we need to use even repulsive methods to secure information, while others just pray that right will out. If we saw that the Terrorists who caused the Towers event, or the London event, could be persuaded to undertake dialog, then we can sit and talk. But sadly as we seeing the total control by Islam is their goal. 
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Arkanrium |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 297 (10/09/09 05:10 PM) The voice of reason.
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The trouble with gitmo in my mind is not that they tortured, it's that those in charge where saying "Torture is wrong and we don't do it
period." Then when it got out they tried to redefine torture so that they indeed where not doing it. Is that not trying to escape the result of your
actions as you said?
If they tough it was necessary to torture then they should have been ready to take their damn lumps for doing it.
"An open mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred and unguarded."
"Blessed is the mind to narrow to doubt!" "Logic is the mask of traitors, reason the cloak of heretics!" "Compromise is the first step on the road to treachery!" -Imperial librarian |
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Errol Grey |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 3481 (10/09/09 08:16 PM) Minister |
Luck of the Draw wrote: But you see, the manipulation isn't in the law itself. It is in the enforcement of thee law. being falsely accused isn't ever an aspect of law. In fact, it is a crime also. False accusations, railroading, scapegoating, those are aspects of the enforcement of law. At least in this country. In other countries those acts are perfectly legal. I have spoken my mind on many occasions. Spent some time in various holding cells for it.Like I said. If you break the law on moral grounds, be glad to do the lime for it. That's how the laws get changed. But if you break the laws, don't be shocked or even angry when they come to pick you up. |
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Rainbow Dreams |
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Guest
Posts: 4 (10/09/09 09:40 PM) |
I am visiting and I like what Errol Grey said.
It is very difficult to balance stated laws, private beliefs, , and different views of society. A person really does know what is right and what is wrong. But society and the survival of the fittest can suppress. |
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sear |
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Posts: 60059 (10/09/09 10:24 PM) Admin. w/out Grace06 |
"I like what Errol Grey said." RD You're in good company about that RD. "A person really does know what is right and what is wrong." RD Most seem to. But psychologists insist there is such a thing as genuine sociopathy. Whether they really don't know, or whether they know, but really don't care; I'm not sure. But how do we explain monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, & Kim Jong Il? The human misery these guys caused is unimaginable. |
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Wolf 2uk |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 2757 (10/10/09 04:15 AM) John: urban |
But how do we explain monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, & Kim Jong Il? IMHO what happened in the this Prison can't be seen on a Par with what the people named and their regimes did. The Despots of whom were mention were not interested in freedom which is how I would view what happened in this prison, the fact that force was used to secure information which I have no doubt aided the war of Terror in my mind was justified. Strange how detached we become when we view problems at arms length. Given that Islamic Terrorist are alive and active all over the world, we should see the threat right in front of us. 
If everyone who played, used the same set of rules conflict would be a thing of the past. But it appears we use a set of rules which our governments in the main stick to, while the other side Laugh at us. |
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sear |
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Posts: 60060 (10/10/09 08:02 AM) Admin. w/out Grace06 |
"the fact that force was used to secure information which I have no doubt aided the war of Terror in my mind was justified." Wolf That's what the Bushies thought too. But even if so, it's illegal. That's the problem. "the other side Laugh at us." Wolf I can't speak for the U.K., but perhaps the U.S. deserves to be laughed at. |
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Luck of the Draw |
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Full-Fledged Member
Posts: 3601 (10/10/09 08:03 AM) Beat the odds! |
Doing the time/paying the consequences for a belief/conviction understood and agree Errol. Torture was okay? Where/what time/what universe???!!!!! So we stoop to the depths or become that which we were hunting? No escaping that we joined the ranks of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc. That which we did shocked the global community why? We lost face/respect of others how? Why? We bill ourselves a supposed leader, "civilized" society, that others are to follow/admire/emulate yet Bush/Gonzales trashed (broke the law) our Constitution, War Powers Act, UN Charter, the Genva Conventions, the Nuremburg Principals all in one felled swoop. Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away... |
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