But what of the momentous decisions that lead the colonists to decide to commit treason against the King of England?
Did they make the right choice?
How do you plan to celebrate the day?
Ever read the history of Washington's forces at Valley Forge?
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sear |
What is the real meaning of Independence Day? |
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To many that think of "the 4th of July" as a holiday and not a date, Independence Day may just be an excuse to eat burnt hot dogs.
But what of the momentous decisions that lead the colonists to decide to commit treason against the King of England? Did they make the right choice? How do you plan to celebrate the day? Ever read the history of Washington's forces at Valley Forge? |
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Wolf 2uk |
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But what of the momentous decisions that lead the colonists to decide to commit treason against the King of England? If the POW (Prince of Wales) ever makes King, I shall declare my own independence. Judge not a man, only by his actions, but by the Friends he keeps. As for your Independence and those who don't see the cost it took to achieve, sad.
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Errol Grey |
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Our predecessors saw the cost and were willing to pay it. We see the cost and are also willing to pay it. It is well worth the expense. Those who do not see
the benefits that outweigh the cost, sad.
"A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big
soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody,"
Tom Joad |
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sear |
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Wolf,
I'd forgotten the quotation. Perhaps it's something like: - a man is known by the company he keeps. - "Our predecessors saw the cost and were willing to pay it." EG True. Many of them made huge sacrifices. And the scale of those sacrifices suggest they expected a huge pay-off. But I wonder if they'd have made those sacrifices if they'd known that their ultimately precious gifts would be frittered away by ungrateful heirs. U.S. citizens have collectively frittered away those hard won gifts over the centuries. And now, in the 3rd Millennium, centuries after the "Boston Tea Party", we are taxed more by our own government than they were by the Crown. We have fewer rights than they did. I don't know how we can view it as anything less than an ungrateful betrayal. |
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DuckyM |
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Each and every day, let's celebrate our independence of thought from the way WE thought yesterday.
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Wolf 2uk |
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But I wonder if they'd have made those sacrifices if they'd known that their ultimately precious gifts would be frittered away by ungrateful heirs. Sear A defining statement, one that could and does cover all counties where Freedom was fought for, and that includes the UK. It has over the last few years seemed to me, we don't really care about freedom any more, and the sadness of that statement is when one day we wake up to 1984, we will all look round for some one to blame.
It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. |
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sear |
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DM,
That's quite a curse. Wolf, It's one of the most monstrous betrayals of human history. We've betrayed our own forebears. It's lunacy. |
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Rambo123UK |
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No, not really. The US revolution wasn't a popular people's revolution, that's the myth that has been created It was a war fought for the greed of
the more wealthy landowners, traders and merchants. The common indentured man wasn't being taxed by the crown - his master was. Britain was no longer ruled
by an absolute tyrant monarch any more, but a parliament. The royal veto hadn't been used for about 70 years at the time and never since. Most of what came
to be enshrined in the US constitution as rights - such as the right to bear arms - was already part of British law. The right to bear arms (with nearly the
exact same wording) appears in a UK bill of rights about a century before.
The pursuit of money (the American colonies were all commercial ventures) and protection of maximum profits by those running the show is staying true to the real ideals of the US revolution. "I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble
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sear |
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"The US revolution wasn't a popular people's revolution, that's the myth that has been created It was a war fought for the greed of the more wealthy landowners, traders and merchants. The common indentured man wasn't being taxed by the crown - his master was." Rambo People were busy. There were forests to be turned into agricultural fields for planting. Don't dismiss how hard sod-busting is until you've cleared about 10 acres. But the Revolution may have been more popular than you think Rambo. Certainly the cause had its wealthy leaders & backers. But they weren't alone. Thomas Paine had been an excise officer, a working man. He lost his job after he wrote about how to reduce some of the corruption in government. Then Paine met the media mogul (perhaps the Rupert Murdoch of his day) Ben Franklin. Franklin invited Paine to come to Philadelphia. After that, Paine wrote and published his booklet Common Sense. "Tyranny like hell, is not easily conquered." Common Sense author Thomas Paine Rambo, I doubt those half million copies were bought up by "wealthy landowners, traders and merchants". "Britain was no longer ruled by an absolute tyrant monarch any more, but a parliament." Rambo Perhaps. But weren't the American colonists still regarded as royal subjects? It's the 2nd paragraph of the DOI that gets most of the attention. But the bulk of the DOI is a list of complaints. Many of the sentences in it begin with the personal pronoun "he". That's not a reference to Parliament. That's a reference to the King; even if misdirected. "(the American colonies were all commercial ventures)" Rambo They may have had financial backing. Columbus might have been a shoe salesman (or whatever) were it not for Queen Isabella. But that doesn't mean some if not many of those that opted for life in the new world didn't have other ideas. Here's a reminder:
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DuckyM |
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It's the ultimate in independence. Independence not only from the rest of the %&*() planet, but from my own archaic thoughts of yesterday. It's also the ultimate statement of progress.
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DuckyM |
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That's quite a comparison.sear wrote:
But I find it hard to believe that Rupert Murdoch is the Ben Franklin of our day. Where are his discoveries and inventions? |
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DuckyM |
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I have just received the following ammended Declaration of Independence from Messiers Franklin and Paine through a psychic channel:
Last Edited By: DuckyM
07/04/09 12:09 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Wolf 2uk |
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No, not really. The US revolution wasn't a popular people's revolution, that's the myth that has been created It was a war fought for the greed of the more wealthy landowners, traders and merchants. ...................Rambo Excellent post Rambo, and it's nice to know (I did not dig into the past) that we were not the all dancing Arsehole's we were made out to be. IMHO of course.
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Macaroo |
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Did they make the right choice?Since they won and weren't hanged as traitors, yeah. They made the right choice. The US revolution wasn't a popular people's revolution, that's the myth that has been created It was a war fought for the greed of the more wealthy landowners, traders and merchants. The common indentured man wasn't being taxed by the crown (yada, yada, yada)...So? Thanks for some of the pre-established hints and all (your model wasn't the only one), but what was the Magna Carta (for example) but a quarrel between the King and the rich Barons about what the latter considered unfair taxation? Do you honestly think either the barons or the King cared one bit about the rights of the Common Man?
Jeebus, Rambo. For a guy who has an excellent grasp on history, you don't seem to understand that humans are, you know, human. Regardless of the original motives for the American revolution, the fact is it succeeded, the colonies whupped the butt du jour for whatever reasons (including incompetence and underestimation on your side of the pond) and kept ultimate control of one of the richest depositories of natural resources on earth. History is largely written by ruthless bastiges. That includes yours. In this case, yours simply failed to reach the pinnacle of Ruthless Bastigeness. Now, can we have a few hotdogs and hamburgs, fire off a buttload of noisemakers and take a day off from work without you having an annual tantrum; particularly since you don't have to acknowledge it at all and can go on with your life unimpeded? Thanks awfully.
Mac
"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize
them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes." Jack Handey
Freethinkers Pub Boomer Bay (For those born 1946-1964) |
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Macaroo |
BTW and re: the price of treason... | ||
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"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Benjamin Franklin, at the signing of the Declaration of IndependenceMac
"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize
them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes." Jack Handey
Freethinkers Pub Boomer Bay (For those born 1946-1964) |
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Wolf 2uk |
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"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." Macaroo I think he was speaking metaphorically, because no one was hung, and he had the same "Spin team" as Bush later employed vis-a-vis Blair's team.
Just being a Devils advocate, no insult intended, accept to Blair. |
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Rambo123UK |
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"Hang together" as in stay together as one. If people had given up on the cause, and it failed then they all would have hung, certainly.
"I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble
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DuckyM |
It all depends on the context... | ||
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.Lincoln could just as well have quoted that, when he was trying to hold the states together, in order to deny the Southern states their independence.
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Macaroo |
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I think he was speaking metaphorically,...Um...no he wasn't, Wolf. ...because no one was hungOnly because the rebellion succeeded. It it had failed, they all would have literally hanged. It was (as Rambo...albeit, somewhat extraneously...observed) treason. Since it succeeded, it was liberation.
That's pretty much the way rebellions of any sort roll. Mac
"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize
them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes." Jack Handey
Freethinkers Pub Boomer Bay (For those born 1946-1964)
Last Edited By: Macaroo
07/05/09 02:56 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Wolf 2uk |
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Only because the rebellion succeeded. It it had failed, they all would have literally hanged. MacarooWe assume. We can't be sure because history is written after the event, not before. So may be at the time the guy was not only rallying his 'troop's' but also giving them a little pepper to say, "now chaps if we fail it could be the high jump for us, so we better stick together, they can't hang us all", or words to that effect, and it worked, and so History was written.
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Rambo123UK |
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The Romans crucified every captured slave after the Spartacus revolt...
We'd certainly have hung all the ringleaders and a significant portion of the others if we'd got our hands on them and it all ended in tears, damned right we would have done. "I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth - certainly greater than sex, although sex isn`t too bad either" Harold Pinter Bible Babble
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