I'm just saying, it's easier to maintain an over the top radical leadership if the majority of the supporters are kept in the dark.These doctors were
told since birth that the "correct path" to Allah was blind obedience to the Imams. And the Q'uran. Obeying both fatwahs and Jihad were the fast
track to paradise. The larger the educated pool to choose from, the less likely you will get fanatics. That's what did it for the Christians. A one two
punch from Martin Luther and Johannes Gutenberg. Was it you, Sear , that asked where's the Islamic Martin Luther? We can do nothing to de-radicalize Islam.
It must come from within.
Is there a viable way the West can de-radicalize Islam?
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 Errol Grey |
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Posts: 1563 (05/13/08 03:39 PM) Minister |
"A world without string is chaos" Rudolf Smuntz
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Thorsen |
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Posts: 1328 (05/13/08 03:48 PM) king of
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No Errol we can not do anything directly to de-radicalize Islam, but we can help create an environment in which said de-redicalization will occur. That starts
with putting diplomatic pressure on Saudi Arabia to restrict their financing of Wahhabism.
We have to do something. I'm putting a plan together. - Tom Burnett, Flight 93
Are you guys ready? Let's roll! - Todd Beamer, Flight 93 I may very well owe my life to Mark [Bingham] and the others who summoned the enormous courage and love necessary to deny those depraved, hateful men their terrible triumph. Such a debt you incur for life. - Sen. John McCain Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. - John 15:13 |
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Errol Grey |
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Posts: 1564 (05/13/08 04:27 PM) Minister |
Not just the Saudis, every Islamic country. But there is little pressure we can exert while begging them for a pitiful drop of oil .
"A world without string is chaos" Rudolf Smuntz
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Thorsen |
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Posts: 1329 (05/13/08 05:17 PM) king of
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I state the Saudis in particular because they are the source of most funding of Wahhabism. Saudi oil money is what is funding the spread of this radicalized
element of Islamic belief.
We have to do something. I'm putting a plan together. - Tom Burnett, Flight 93
Are you guys ready? Let's roll! - Todd Beamer, Flight 93 I may very well owe my life to Mark [Bingham] and the others who summoned the enormous courage and love necessary to deny those depraved, hateful men their terrible triumph. Such a debt you incur for life. - Sen. John McCain Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. - John 15:13 |
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Morticia Addams 7 |
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Posts: 69 (05/13/08 09:56 PM) Full-Fledged Member |
Errol Grey wrote:
You've nailed it, Errol. 
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Luck of the Draw |
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Posts: 1856 (05/13/08 11:17 PM) Beat the odds! |
I don't think it as simple as just lumping as to "we're dealing with illiteracy/a supposed "backwards" country and it's people.
I thinkit has considerable more to do with how we have treated them and their distrust that our culture/customs/live style is seen as a considerble threat. The manner in which we have manipulated/played one against the other in the countries mentioned. And I see nothing mentioned in our having to address our own behavior. "Blowing them back to oblivion" seems to have fallen rather short of the mark, no? Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away... |
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Errol Grey |
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Posts: 1565 (05/13/08 11:27 PM) Minister |
Catch 22 isn't it Thor? Saudi oil money funds the radicals that want to destroy us. The Saudis get that money from us.
"A world without string is chaos" Rudolf Smuntz
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Thorsen |
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Posts: 1339 (05/14/08 08:00 AM) king of
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Absolutely is Errol. I am sure you have noticed me state numerous times that for various reasons we need to develop alternative transportation energy sources.
We have to do something. I'm putting a plan together. - Tom Burnett, Flight 93
Are you guys ready? Let's roll! - Todd Beamer, Flight 93 I may very well owe my life to Mark [Bingham] and the others who summoned the enormous courage and love necessary to deny those depraved, hateful men their terrible triumph. Such a debt you incur for life. - Sen. John McCain Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. - John 15:13 |
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Propaganster |
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Posts: 2156 (05/14/08 08:11 AM) Citizen From Future Obsolete |
sear wrote:OK Pro: Your point being?
~Give me Liberty of Give me Death~
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sear |
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Posts: 48279 (05/14/08 11:44 AM) CoAdmin.w/Grace06 |
"Your point being?" Pro These things no longer happen because of the reforms included in "The Reformation". I'm not asserting it transformed Catholic theology. I'm reporting that it included changes in the method and scope of Vatican influence. And when I read about the mischief Sadr gets into with his Macti army, I see a close parallel to the Vatican before the Reformation. I don't have much patience for organized religions. But I'm OK w/ Islam provided they can exercise their religion without carnage. But adding their divine imprimatur to misinterpretations of their scripture which lead them to "slay the infidels where ever they find" us is a problem. |
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clemiethedog.myfunnyfarm |
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Posts: 4 (05/14/08 12:44 PM) |
I don't think fundamentalists of any religion can be de-radicalzed. Bush obviously is oblivious to his own brand of radicalism.
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Ducky M |
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Last Edited By: Ducky M
05/14/08 01:29 PM.
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Ducky M |
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Posts: 710 (05/14/08 01:50 PM) Court Jester |
Ibn
Warraq on the reformation of Islam
Spinoza and the Tractatus |
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Propaganster |
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Posts: 2166 (05/14/08 03:56 PM) Citizen From Future Obsolete |
sear wrote:Secularisation did a lot more to free us of the abuses of religion than a "reformation" that simply changed the name of the church people were abused by. Now, you can try and spin that argument all you want, that it wasn't secularisation that "de-radicalized" our countries, but you'd be wrong. And no matter how much you repeat it, you'll still be wrong.
~Give me Liberty of Give me Death~
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Ducky M |
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Posts: 717 (05/14/08 04:23 PM) Court Jester |
Propaganster wrote: An example of that is that the Lutheran Church today has in effect repudiated many of the doctrines held by Martin Luther. Also, some Presbyterian
congregations ( not all ) no longer follow Calvin. |
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Propaganster |
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Posts: 2169 (05/14/08 04:24 PM) Citizen From Future Obsolete |
Martin Luther was the original Nazi, so please, let's stop talking about that sorry bastard.
~Give me Liberty of Give me Death~
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Ducky M |
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Posts: 719 (05/14/08 05:01 PM) Court Jester |
Should we also stop talking about the Nazis? The neo-Nazis would certainly like that.
Last Edited By: Ducky M
05/14/08 05:04 PM.
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Errol Grey |
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Posts: 1566 (05/14/08 11:58 PM) Minister |
LOTD said:
I don't think it as simple as just lumping as to "we're dealing with illiteracy/a supposed "backwards" country and it's people. I thinkit has considerable more to do with how we have treated them and their distrust that our culture/customs/live style is seen as a considerble threat. The manner in which we have manipulated/played one against the other in the countries mentioned. And I see nothing mentioned in our having to address our own behavior. "Blowing them back to oblivion" seems to have fallen rather short of the mark, no? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes LOTD it is that simple. The lack desire by their religious/political leadership to allow the populus to rise above their nearly stone age existence has more to do with their situation than anything we have done. It's not a distrust of our culture/customs/lifestyles. It a belief that we are an abomination before their god. Right now, the only thing that would appease them isn't for us to leave them alone, but for us to fully embrace Islamic law as the law of our land. Address our behavior? Which behavior would that be? The behavior that has made them among the wealthiest nations in the world? Don't fool yourself, Just look at history. Look at the old (636AD to 1600 AD) bounderies of the Islamic Empire. radical Islamists have said they want those lands back (Why do you think Spain has been a favorite target of theirs?). And have said it is their duty to Allah to spread Islamic law world wide. We are they biggest block in the road to an Islamic world. Their gripes with us are not about our building their oil wells and pipelines. Our driving the Germany Army out in WWII. Our being their biggest customer for their oil. It's our refusal to accept their God given right to impose Islamic law upon us.Or the rest of the world for that matter.
"A world without string is chaos" Rudolf Smuntz
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Rambo123UK |
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Posts: 572 (05/15/08 05:10 AM) Caution: slippery when wet |
Martin Luther was the original Nazi I'm glad I'm not alone in that view.
The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning.
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Luck of the Draw |
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Posts: 1866 (05/15/08 06:26 AM) Beat the odds! |
Yes LOTD it is that simple. The lack desire by their religious/political leadership to allow the populus to rise above their nearly stone age existence has more to do with their situation than anything we have done. Sorry Errrol but I think the colonialism practiced in the area may have been a serious contributing factor.
Address our behavior? Which behavior would that be? How about the manner in which we gave support Israel? Do you think that may have caused concern/friction for the other countries in that area? How about the manner in which we have attempt to tweak or play one country against another? I have to imagine even the Israelies did a tad of a head shake when we started sucking up to the Saudies?
And how long have we been bombing the #%!# out of Iraq/it's people under the guise of our so called "best interest?" We didn't build those oil wells/pipelines merely out of the goodness of our heartl Errol. Your simplistic "kill the infadel" thinking shows you don't grasp the complexity of the situation. You might wish to understand the sitution better here: Islamic Fundamentalism Feared, Misunderstood http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2004d/100804/100804a.php Islamic Fundamentalism http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_701505583_2/Islamic_Fundamentalism.html
Or a google search your own choosing....the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism
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